I just downloaded Learning in Depth, and it is the most revolutionary thing I've read about education in my whole life. Thank you for sharing this. I'm hooked, I'll move on to the books right away.
RIGHT? It's been work to NOT trumpet it up 'til now. It makes me especially hungry to (say) visit another school where this has been in effect for years, and see what the real-world effects really are.
I'm a college professor so it's hard for me to apply this, but I do have two little girls and I'm starting to worry about the state of elementary education enough that I want to do something about it. Still don't know what.
I have now read all of this substack, your ACX book review (and comments), Egan's The Future of Education, the Learning in Depth PDF and some of his posts on the ImaginED blog. I am naturally skeptical and have so many questions it could probably be it's own blog post but I'm going to try asking them inline here even though they are mostly not specifically about this post.
About the "kinds of understanding" - what is their practical application? Suppose you had two schools with amazing teachers who are going to teach in a new way. School 1 is based on all of Egan's ideas. School 2 is based on the "tools" (e.g. stories, jokes, gossip etc - all of the things that are "inside" Egan's "kinds of understanding"). All teachers in the schools are given examples and ideas about how to apply the ideas, including when they are most likely to be effective e.g. "metaphors work particularly well with students in the age range X-Y". So, what is the difference between the teaching you would see in school 1 vs 2? Is there any difference in the outcomes? What does knowing about mythic, romantic etc. add?
Next weekend’s post, by the way, will be a request to attack the whole notion of Egan’s paradigm, and making Egan schools — so please gin up your skepticism as much as you can there! (But feel free to post these questions here, too.)
Questions about the triangle of socialization, academics and development:
In the second video workshop you did, you discussed a question I also had about why can't we jump between the different sides of the triangle at different times. Don't many schools already somewhat do that (e.g. the class where they learn Hamlet is more academic and the class where they learn life skills is more socialization)? You say "what Egan promises to do is not to jump us around but is to bring all of these together" and yet on p147 of The Future of Education when Egan is discussing future schools, he says "programs began by following a successful IE innovation in the previous decade, setting up a revised academic program in the mornings and a new kind of socializing program, including a revised Social Studies curriculum, and job preparation in the afternoons." (for those not familiar, IE = imaginative education, i.e. based on Egan's ideas). So it sounds like he did imagine his schools would also jump around.
I also feel that when you describe Egan's solution to the triangle problem, you change the definition of socialization. When you state the problem, you say "A school built on the socialization model will mold students to fit into the roles of society". Later, you say Egan fulfills socialization by having a "connection to the rest of humanity" (in the blog) and that students are "being socialized by, you know cavemen, by Romantic Poets, by Socrates" (in video 5). I do not think that sort of socialization will meet the goals for those who want young people to fit into their current society.
Another nitpick: in the first video, a lot of viewers answered that one of the purposes of school today seems to be "babysitting" and I don't think that fits into any of the three corners.
I just ordered Learning In Depth and I’m excited to read it and find the topic that my 13 yo will want to do. I subbed in his middle school for 2 years and that was such an eye opener. I went to public school and it wasn’t perfect but I did ok and I assumed it was where he needed to be. I’m not a teacher so I never even thought about homeschooling until I saw how little they actually were learning. Not to mention all of the not so great things he was being exposed to. By the middle of his 6th grade year (I subbed 5-8 grades) I knew I wanted to try. I felt if anything school was dumbing him down and his attitude was changing in ways I didn’t like. I noticed when he was out of school for winter break or summer within say a week of being at home he would turn back into my sweet/smart kid. My husband and my son weren’t initially on board with me trying to homeschool but I’m the end they trusted my decision. We’ve only been at it a couple of months but I think it’s going great. Of course I want him to learn all the things he’ll be required to know if he chooses to go back and for college but I also want him to enjoy learning. I think back to when he was little, we did baby signing videos before he could talk and it was amazing how much he knew. He would ask (in sign) for the babies. We did picture books to learn colors, numbers, etc and he loved it and it was so easy. I want to tap into that type of learning by him doing something he enjoys and also learns from it. Right now he’s obsessed with baseball. I don’t know if that could be his topic but hopefully we can find one that works.
Sorry so long winded. I feel like I’m learning so much on our journey and it’s exciting for me. I just want him to be excited about it also.
After reading your book review, I read The Educated Mind and I actually LOVED it. Dense non-fiction was my first love, so I guess I'm the target audience. But I wasn't sure what to read from Egan after that. Now you've convinced me to dive into An Imaginative Approach to Teaching! Much admire your work. Cheers
I just downloaded Learning in Depth, and it is the most revolutionary thing I've read about education in my whole life. Thank you for sharing this. I'm hooked, I'll move on to the books right away.
RIGHT? It's been work to NOT trumpet it up 'til now. It makes me especially hungry to (say) visit another school where this has been in effect for years, and see what the real-world effects really are.
I'm a college professor so it's hard for me to apply this, but I do have two little girls and I'm starting to worry about the state of elementary education enough that I want to do something about it. Still don't know what.
I have now read all of this substack, your ACX book review (and comments), Egan's The Future of Education, the Learning in Depth PDF and some of his posts on the ImaginED blog. I am naturally skeptical and have so many questions it could probably be it's own blog post but I'm going to try asking them inline here even though they are mostly not specifically about this post.
About the "kinds of understanding" - what is their practical application? Suppose you had two schools with amazing teachers who are going to teach in a new way. School 1 is based on all of Egan's ideas. School 2 is based on the "tools" (e.g. stories, jokes, gossip etc - all of the things that are "inside" Egan's "kinds of understanding"). All teachers in the schools are given examples and ideas about how to apply the ideas, including when they are most likely to be effective e.g. "metaphors work particularly well with students in the age range X-Y". So, what is the difference between the teaching you would see in school 1 vs 2? Is there any difference in the outcomes? What does knowing about mythic, romantic etc. add?
YES, MORE, PLEASE!
Next weekend’s post, by the way, will be a request to attack the whole notion of Egan’s paradigm, and making Egan schools — so please gin up your skepticism as much as you can there! (But feel free to post these questions here, too.)
Questions about the triangle of socialization, academics and development:
In the second video workshop you did, you discussed a question I also had about why can't we jump between the different sides of the triangle at different times. Don't many schools already somewhat do that (e.g. the class where they learn Hamlet is more academic and the class where they learn life skills is more socialization)? You say "what Egan promises to do is not to jump us around but is to bring all of these together" and yet on p147 of The Future of Education when Egan is discussing future schools, he says "programs began by following a successful IE innovation in the previous decade, setting up a revised academic program in the mornings and a new kind of socializing program, including a revised Social Studies curriculum, and job preparation in the afternoons." (for those not familiar, IE = imaginative education, i.e. based on Egan's ideas). So it sounds like he did imagine his schools would also jump around.
I also feel that when you describe Egan's solution to the triangle problem, you change the definition of socialization. When you state the problem, you say "A school built on the socialization model will mold students to fit into the roles of society". Later, you say Egan fulfills socialization by having a "connection to the rest of humanity" (in the blog) and that students are "being socialized by, you know cavemen, by Romantic Poets, by Socrates" (in video 5). I do not think that sort of socialization will meet the goals for those who want young people to fit into their current society.
Another nitpick: in the first video, a lot of viewers answered that one of the purposes of school today seems to be "babysitting" and I don't think that fits into any of the three corners.
I just ordered Learning In Depth and I’m excited to read it and find the topic that my 13 yo will want to do. I subbed in his middle school for 2 years and that was such an eye opener. I went to public school and it wasn’t perfect but I did ok and I assumed it was where he needed to be. I’m not a teacher so I never even thought about homeschooling until I saw how little they actually were learning. Not to mention all of the not so great things he was being exposed to. By the middle of his 6th grade year (I subbed 5-8 grades) I knew I wanted to try. I felt if anything school was dumbing him down and his attitude was changing in ways I didn’t like. I noticed when he was out of school for winter break or summer within say a week of being at home he would turn back into my sweet/smart kid. My husband and my son weren’t initially on board with me trying to homeschool but I’m the end they trusted my decision. We’ve only been at it a couple of months but I think it’s going great. Of course I want him to learn all the things he’ll be required to know if he chooses to go back and for college but I also want him to enjoy learning. I think back to when he was little, we did baby signing videos before he could talk and it was amazing how much he knew. He would ask (in sign) for the babies. We did picture books to learn colors, numbers, etc and he loved it and it was so easy. I want to tap into that type of learning by him doing something he enjoys and also learns from it. Right now he’s obsessed with baseball. I don’t know if that could be his topic but hopefully we can find one that works.
Sorry so long winded. I feel like I’m learning so much on our journey and it’s exciting for me. I just want him to be excited about it also.
After reading your book review, I read The Educated Mind and I actually LOVED it. Dense non-fiction was my first love, so I guess I'm the target audience. But I wasn't sure what to read from Egan after that. Now you've convinced me to dive into An Imaginative Approach to Teaching! Much admire your work. Cheers